Its the same with any Fringe list that sacrifices all but one element of a force list to maximise one aspect.
Fringe lists need other fringe lists to have close games (Knights vs massed Drop pod marines for example).
Imagine fighting against a guard army that only took infantry platoons on objectives... Vs 5 knights.
The guards player would do little against the knights other then get stomped, but good luck on killing the 350-400 models in 5 turns.
I'm just not a big fan of fringe lists (even my eldar Wraith list is dull and I fitted them out with different weapons for each unit to try and make them interesting)
(25-08-2015, 04:04 PM)Alpharius Wrote: [ -> ] (25-08-2015, 12:09 PM)wako1302 Wrote: [ -> ]I have no problems playing LoWs, in fact I have been known to field 5 Imperial Knights in an army and usually two when Allied with the Sisters.
I think the problem with the LoW, is if you do not have one you do not understand the weakness of a LoW, but I am not going to tell you what they are.
But most players seem to be scared by just the physical size of them.
And YES the Knights have played a manrogue drop pod list and it was touch and go for most of the game.
Yes you do need to know the weaknesses. But, and this is a big but, LoW can take on armies by themselves if you dont super optimise for them.
Lets be honest. Johnny pick up who didnt know he was facing a single knight, let alone 5 hasnt a hope in hell.
Its why alot of people wont play your 4 knight list dave. Its not fun to have these 4 leviathans of metal turn an army to paste turn 1.
I agree you can beat them if you build for it or you happen to play drop pod melta but other than that you HAVE to counter build.
Rant over.
In that case you may as well say that you are not going to play the Drop-Pod list or a Teleports Centstars list, just because you have not built a list to take advantage of their weaknesses.
** SPOILER ** You have to play a different tactic against the Knight Army, you most likely will not don't beat the Knight List in a straight shooting fight, but you beat them by concentrating you fire on one at a time and by getting more Tactical Objectives - By having usually 2, 3 or 4 times the number of units you can easily get more Tactical Objectives completed per turn.
These days I am playing the Sisters with 2 Knights (The Knights are only there because the Sisters have basically no Tanks) and to be honest it is a much tougher list than the 4 or 5 knights.
fyi - JJ has beaten the knights with his Eldar.
(25-08-2015, 04:28 PM)aprilmanha Wrote: [ -> ]Its the same with any Fringe list that sacrifices all but one element of a force list to maximise one aspect.
Fringe lists need other fringe lists to have close games (Knights vs massed Drop pod marines for example).
Imagine fighting against a guard army that only took infantry platoons on objectives... Vs 5 knights.
The guards player would do little against the knights other then get stomped, but good luck on killing the 350-400 models in 5 turns.
I'm just not a big fan of fringe lists (even my eldar Wraith list is dull and I fitted them out with different weapons for each unit to try and make them interesting)
A strandard-ish Guard list with a few Russes and Lascanon Heavy Weapon units would be a Knightmare for the Knights - Just too may units to deal with, even the units that could not hurt a Knight could tie it up in combat or run around just taking Tactical Objectives.
(25-08-2015, 05:28 PM)wako1302 Wrote: [ -> ]A strandard-ish Guard list with a few Russes and Lascanon Heavy Weapon units would be a Knightmare for the Knights - Just too may units to deal with, even the units that could not hurt a Knight could tie it up in combat or run around just taking Tactical Objectives.
I still would not take the Russes, as that's about 30-40 less bodies to clog up the Knights gears with, and a Russ will die to quickly to be any use.
Maybe lines and lines of Guards with a 5 Melta in each squad + a Commisar in huge fearless blobs that can gun down the Mechs if they get to close
Pretty immovable though and not likely to hold more objectives then the ones in their half of the board
so they have to hope they play a good card game
(25-08-2015, 05:38 PM)aprilmanha Wrote: [ -> ] (25-08-2015, 05:28 PM)wako1302 Wrote: [ -> ]A strandard-ish Guard list with a few Russes and Lascanon Heavy Weapon units would be a Knightmare for the Knights - Just too may units to deal with, even the units that could not hurt a Knight could tie it up in combat or run around just taking Tactical Objectives.
I still would not take the Russes, as that's about 30-40 less bodies to clog up the Knights gears with, and a Russ will die to quickly to be any use.
Maybe lines and lines of Guards with a 5 Melta in each squad + a Commisar in huge fearless blobs that can gun down the Mechs if they get to close
Pretty immovable though and not likely to hold more objectives then the ones in their half of the board so they have to hope they play a good card game
True, but I am saying if you take what a normal-ish Guard List has (one that has not been modified for Knights) - Lots of Infantry, some good Heavy Support and odd flyer - it is still going to be difficult for the Knights to win - One very lucky Guardman can tie up a Knight on his own.
(25-08-2015, 05:50 PM)wako1302 Wrote: [ -> ]True, but I am saying if you take what a normal-ish Guard List has (one that has not been modified for Knights) - Lots of Infantry, some good Heavy Support and odd flyer - it is still going to be difficult for the Knights to win - One very lucky Guardman can tie up a Knight on his own.
That would be some scary luck to avoid the CC attacks and then the 4 stomp hits as well
Still having said that I rolled more 6's in a row a few weeks back then ever (and got a triple one this weekend)
(25-08-2015, 06:07 PM)aprilmanha Wrote: [ -> ] (25-08-2015, 05:50 PM)wako1302 Wrote: [ -> ]True, but I am saying if you take what a normal-ish Guard List has (one that has not been modified for Knights) - Lots of Infantry, some good Heavy Support and odd flyer - it is still going to be difficult for the Knights to win - One very lucky Guardman can tie up a Knight on his own.
That would be some scary luck to avoid the CC attacks and then the 4 stomp hits as well
Still having said that I rolled more 6's in a row a few weeks back then ever (and got a triple one this weekend)
A knight is only Weapon Skill 4.
So the D-Weapon is not always hitting. It also does nothing on a roll of 1 and the Guardsman may have a save on a roll between 2 and 5. Only a roll of 6 would be an instant kill.
Only one STOMP template could cover the Guardsman, so he would only get 1 hit. It also does nothing on a roll of 1 and the Guardsman may have a save on a roll between 2 and 5. Only a roll of 6 would be an instant kill.
I have had a single marine stand up against a Knight for 3 turns before it was killed - Once lock in combat a Knight cannot run, and therefore cannot shoot - A good tactic is to just sacrifice units against the Knight to stop it doing anything.
You can win a game of 40k with just a single Guardsman left alive.
Standard guard can do fine against Knights, just put melta bombs on stuff (which i recommend anyway, 5Pt melta bombs have bailed me out loads). Melta vets love knights and my guard army would cause a lot of issues to knight list.
The problem a lot of people have at the club is they don't play to win, they play to kill stuff and tend to forget about victory conditions. Which is fine and cool if that is how you like to play but in Daves defence, knights are not the most hard to beat list. Which is why you don't see them winning GT's.
Its all about death stars and/or MSU's in 7th. 5 Knights can be picked off one by one and don't have objective secured anymore either, so they struggle to hold objectives.
My BA drop pod list is a all comers list and i wouldn't switch it up to face hordes or Knights, its designed to face, well, anything!
The lists weakness is massed flyers, but even then have fun trying get rid of all the drop pods and troops sitting on objectives. But thats he way 40K is, there is always a rock to your scissors.
Ehh I just don't like how Fringe lists became the "Balanced all-rounder" list in 6th and 7th
Still no skin off my noes
I never expect to ever win any game anyway
LoW and super heavies are part of the game now, people better get used to them.
Imperial Knights are tough, Wraithknights are tougher and they are becoming more and more popular with more Imperial Knight variants, last I heard, Tau rumoured to get one of as well.
LoW are here to stay.